Sen. Boxer has zero tolerance for crimes against children, and the employee was immediately terminated," Boxer spokeshole Natalie Ravitz said in a statement Thursday.
I am certainly glad Senator Boxer has zero tolerance for some crimes against some children.
Now, if I may kindly draw her attention to this:link
62 comments:
An image can disgust, frighten and even bring one to tears, but it is not an argument. I still do not know whether a late-term fetus is a human life or a bag of organs. Does the fetus have a soul?
For that matter, does Barbara Boxer have a soul?
I'd wager a late term fetus has at least as much of a soul as Barbara Boxer, based on the available evidence.
tully: the status of human life is a matter of science.
the presence of a soul is a matter of faith.
Tully, don't be an idiot. Seriously.
Even if you are choosing to ignore the ridiculousness of possibly not believing that child was fully human, what the hell kind of "good" is it to err on the side of convenience? If it is POSSIBLE that kid was ensouled, if you cannot prove he WASN'T, you are a complete fuckup if you enable that shit to happen. Even with puerile logic games.
Get your head out of your ass.
kr: tully does bring a valid point of argument as to when 'personhood' begins.
or even a definition of what personhood is, or if there even is such a status at all.
as a society, we dont even have a concesus on that much.
kr&gino: I didn't say that science could prove anything did I?
Didn't I simply ask a question (and a humorous one at that)?
Overall, it seems as if kr is reading WAY too much into a simple couple of questions. Personally, I am rather convinced that the "personal" soul is a myth, and that there is no indication by faith or science that any human being has a soul all his own. As to how a common soul would affect the abortion issue, that question is not warranted by this post.
Let us not pretend that faith provides answers at all similar to those of science, and that such a division of labour in answering such vital questions is realistic. Faith is perhaps more powerful than reason, but far from telling one what to do, it is essential to the path toward knowing what to do. Nor should we commit to science as a source of answers- it is just as likely that, in the way that the universe was said to come from nothing on account of nothing preceding it, that we say that "answers" come out of reason/science just because reason precedes them. Before the enlightenment, the word for science was "philosophy"- a word that claims only a love of wisdom, not a domination thereof. In this way, science that is self-aware may be more like faith (the path rather than the destination) than we seem to think.
The idea of knowing scientifically either where life or the soul begins is in any event one of dominating that which likely dominates ourselves and our pursuits- and not according to ambition, but according to their own natures and our own natures. I say all of this not to put forth a positive view of my own, for in that case I would indeed have my head up my ass and not even acknowledge it, thinking that I see the New Jerusalem rather than my anal sphincter. I do mean to question some apparent certainties, such as are stirred into further arrogance by the sight of appalling images.
As for enabling, I am a "fuckup" if I enable us to stray from critical thinking and fall into any sort of dogmatic slumber, be it on the left or right, right or wrong. In either position, by empowering science (whatever that is) or faith (whatever that is) I might risk even more appalling atrocities than you are highlighting here. In order to stop atrocities at the source, we must question the source, not the source's most apparent operants. We're still hunting down Nazi's in their 90's, but they are not the source of the holocaust. We must rather consider that the source of the holocaust is at large, even in the bureaucracy that seeks to eliminate such individuals.
I didn't want to write such a tract, but kr asked for it! If you guys didn't take me so seriously, you would have avoided this...
On a lighter note, Gino, your title provides the most colorful and amusing euphemism for late term abortion I have ever heard. I thank you, and provide this as proof that you are every bit as witty as before the operation!
Tully,
Ask an embryologist when life begins.
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html
Then get back to me.
Kris,
AKA too lazy to log in right now.
I see matters of embryonic development explored, and matters of unification of two separate entities. I understand why this would suggest that life begins when the embryo takes on a function of its own, but my doubt lies in whether mechanical physical functions which are played out in the developing embryo are what we would call "life," The "life" to which a biologist refers is perhaps as dogmatic and abstracted from reality as the "soul" to which a priest refers.
Please consider that if life was the combination of soul and body, an embryologist could have nothing to say without consulting rational (or perhaps empirical) psychology. I don't assert the truth of this premise, but please consider it.
No, Tully, you pissed me off because you thought something about what you said might be funny.
There is NOTHING about that situation that warrants a joke.
I'm not going to bother arguing the soul with someone as clearly head-blind as you are.
I mean, what the hell, our society is moving toward humane slaughter of cows and pigs, and (more) humane raising of veal and fois gras ... in Germany the docs actually said that anesthetic should be administered to the fetus before they were dismembered, because it is clear that in many cases the fetus is reacting as we expect a person to react to that sort of pain ...
I call bullshit, Tully. There is some stuff that is NOT to be joked about , EVER.
And Gino, I KNOW the "soul" question is a pertinent one, particularly for the large number of people who either don't have much spiritual sense or have shut theirs off (because it hurts too damn much, or because it is so looked down upon by society).
People who find those of us with a spiritual sense to have inconvenient evidence of experience to present, are allowed by society to denigrate and ignore us and our evidences. (Notwithstanding that murderers can be condemned on the evidence of a single eyewitness, eh?)
Fuck that. The person exists, from conception or at least from within a couple days of it, based on my experience, not "just" 2000 years of brave spiritual people countermanding societal convenience to maintain what we now call the Catholic theological viewpoint on this.
Experience is experience, and just because "science" hasn't figured out a way to measure this type of experience doesn't mean it isn't actually definitive information on the subject.
I never asserted Tully was asking an immaterial question. I asserted he was being an ass.
And I know from past encounters that the only things I have to say to 'prove' my point aren't 'legitimate' information to him, so I won't bother with arguing his inappropriately casual 'counter' to your picture.
And he knows from the past that I can argue pretty well about an awful lot of things. His choice, whether to take me seriously or not.
And I still think that erring on the side of not-torture-murder is "good"er and more logical than offering this type of sacrifice to the God of Convenience.
I am awfully tired of smart people around me trying to take the easy way out of this question.
"I can't see it, so it doesn't exist, and wow, believing that just makes it so much easier to get along in the world as it stands."
(I also just balled out another man, over email, for an incredibly backwards, personal-perception-based "justification" argument for "choice." He's a scientist. Dude, either there is objective reality or there isn't, you can't have it both ways!!!!)
That's supposed to be "bawled." Homonym error.
Well gosh, if the subject is my being an ass I'm in no position to make an argument.
I don't consider humor as an escape from any social/ethical ailment, no matter how atrocious it may be. Humor is more cognitive and less dogmatic than tragedy, which is why I admire Gino and his title so much. The question is not "Should we laugh at this situation?" but rather "What aspect of this situation is funniest?"
I don't consider it a great loss to be considered an ass, but I would consider it a loss if you blew off my comment as a result of my character. Please consider it- by all means ridicule it- with comic precision!
((when kr and tully draw knifes, its best i just stay out of it.))
Nothing like a gladiatorial spectacle to greet Caesar's return, eh Gino!
Duh ya think that maybe the absence of 40 million tax paying workers might be having an adverse affect on our economy? Not to mention the umpteen million children of all those aborted citizens. Great to see you're posting again Gino. And God bless;
Good Lord...kr isn't going to like that comment!
From conception to death, our bodies grow and change. Babies are born with incomplete skulls, incomplete joints, incomplete eyesight; yet are somehow magically considered "complete" by society after they exit the vagina. Our noses and ears continue to grow throughout our entire lives even after everything else has stopped.
To draw that line of right to exist at birth is absurd. Ask a woman who gave birth prematurely and the baby did not survive, if her child was real.
Tully, you have of late just started to completely piss me off. Is it your sophomore year?
The degree of self-reflective 'logic,' with a return to a deifying worship of "reason" ... !
Speechless.
By the way, Gino's title is not, unless I am very much mistaken, an euphemism for what was shown in the picture, but a commentary using "humorous" language to heighten the painful irony he is employing to highlight the tragic and appalling blindness of someone purporting to be a protector of children. Gino may of course step in and correct me. (Although the title confused me because I would have assumed Sen. Boxer, being a Democrat I have heard of, is OK with male homosexual behaviors. I guess not towards children though.)
And I repeat that some things cannot be morally made a joke of. Gino was making a joke of Senator Boxer, not the baby, and not abortion.
And, I rather agree with Guitarman, actually.
On the other hand, abortion won't go away until we stop commoditizing and denaturalizing sex, so to the extent, Tully, that you suggest we are looking to fix the wrong level of the problem, I can agree with you.
too tired for segues, sorry. g'night.
KR, as always we probably agree more than disagree. You seem to be reading a lot of disagreement into my comments if you think I'm deifying reason. After all, it would be absurd for me to worship as mysterious a force which is compelled to limit itself, such as reason, par excellence is compelled to limit itself. To worship the finite is absurd. Your opposition to reason run a muck is wise, but you cannot count on the irrational (whatever that is- assuming it exists) to keep it in check. You cannot let the inmates run the asylum, as Gino is doing in this comment thread!
Tully, regarding your first comment, there is a classification of implied arguments in statements. Gino's link was exactly that.
And regarding the humanity of the pre-born, consider how John the Baptist responded to the presence of his Lord while not yet born, or "you knit me together in my mother's womb," or Psalm 139:13-14, or Exodus 21:22-25. Biblically speaking, it is not a subtle argument, really.
I question the whole concept of a soul, and I still think that depriving an individual of their right to live for matters of convenience is pretty gross. If a child were dismembered outside the womb in a premeditated conspiracy, it would be a death penalty offense in some states.
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