Monday, February 26, 2007

I Got This In An Email

Italian Television:
This is the hostess for an Italian afternoon t.v. Talk show.



Click on images to enlarge.
You're welcome!













American Television
These are the hostesses for American afternoon t.v. Talk shows.










Warning: Do Not click on these images.

To enroll in your nearest language school to learn Italian call:
800-555-CIAO

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ever curious, and noticing the telltale lack of sideburns, upper-lip shadow, or 'Alyssa Milano' arm hair commonly found on even the most beautiful of Italian women,I did a little on-line detective work to check the veracity of the email's contents.(I tend to do this).

After discovering the same joke being displayed on a popular humor site HERE,and being posted on several other blogs, I finally arrived at The Truth.

Turns out the lovely babe is actually Pamela David,a very popular model in Argentina,a Playboy cover girl , and the photos are from a Chilean talk show where she was appearing as a guest.Here's more important info on Pamela David
And Here!
I also found some videos, but will not link to them.(NSFW, and I have my limits.)

But none of this is important.
What really matters is that I just found a good explanation to post pictures of Pamela David on my own blog.
Just a charitable service for my readers. No need to thank me.
Well, OK... you can thank me.

75 comments:

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

¡Mira, me dejaste con la lengua por fuera!

Thank you!

The Law Fairy said...

"info"?

Nice to see how much you truly respect women, Gino. I'll keep this in mind next time I'm tempted to read some of your rambling arguments as though they come from someone who's actually having a CONVERSATION with me. Because, silly me, Lord knows you must only talk to me because you're envisioning my large, barely clothed breasts (for the record, they're slightly below average and I'm wearing a boring button-up shirt. Feel free to start ignoring me.... NOW).

Gino said...

LawFairy: that's not gonna work. i actually prefer smaller breasted, conservatively dressed women. and now, you've really got my interest up. add some ability to hold a conversation (check), a little spunk(check), and be glad i'm still kinda married. :)

VAS: yer welcome!

The Law Fairy said...

Wow, it's like you're not even embarrassed to admit that you don't respect women.

Well, not that you're likely to care, but I don't respect people who don't respect women.

Tracy said...

Thank you. Thank you indeed.

Gino said...

Law Fairy:
it wasnt me who tarted her up and walked her on stage. she makes lots of money doing just that. woman power, i guess...

The Law Fairy said...

lol, nice -- yeah, it must be her fault she lives in a society where she's valued only for her looks. I mean, really, she is the one we ought to be blaming for making the rational decision to make more money, not the society that pays women more money for playing into men's immature fetishistic fantasies.

I LOVE how you people manage to turn it around. ALWAYS the woman's fault. I'd call it sophism except that sophism is more thoughtful.

hammerswing75 said...

This comment section seems like a dog bites man story. Man expresses interest in woman's beauty. Feminist expresses outrage.

I wouldn't disagree with Law Fairy that it's wrong to objectify women, but blaming men for this is just silly. Takes two to tango and all that.

Gino said...

call it what you want.
but i see a woman blessed with attributes that open doors. and being a model isnt easy. just ask VAS. its takes more drive to be a big $$ model than it takes for law school or med school, and just as much brains.

but i suppose she could have chosen marriage and babies instead of carrer. if she wants to change her mind, i know somebody who might be interested.

and this whole talk detracts from the valuable service i am providing my readers who may be easily duped by spoof email forwards. i seek to inform and educate. this is my mission.

hammerswing75 said...

Gino, I've no doubt that it takes quite a lot of skill to succeed as a model. It's a bit like athletics in that only a fraction of those with the "assets" can make it.

I just find it interesting that the Law Fairy gets angry over this and blames men.

Sorry that I overlooked your valuable service.

Gino said...

LawFairy is actually a sweetie.
Sometimes.

The Law Fairy said...

I am not a sweetie, and please don't refer to me in such diminutive terms. And if you don't like my comments, you're free to delete them. It is your blog.

And I wasn't blaming men -- the stuff that sounded like man-blaming came in when Gino used the horrifically offensive word "tart." IF there is a gender to blame for the objectification of women, it is not women. That was my point. However, there are plenty of other anti-woman things that happen in society for which I would probably place the "blame" on women as much as on men (if not more so) -- that doesn't prohibit me from calling out individual people of either gender for perpetuating sexism.

What I took issue with is the very obvious implication from this post that women should only be valued for their looks. Gino is quite clear about this. He makes an unfavorable comparison with two American female talk show hosts (chosen completely at random, I'm sure) with the blatant message that the Italians are to be preferred. Why? Well, you need only click on "more info" about the Italian woman to find relevant background and biological information about her and her show -- her political views, her contributions to the community, her education... oh. Wait. Huh. Seems none of that even enters into the picture.

Well then, surely Gino must have a reason for liking her over the American hosts? Maybe they're just such qualitatively bad hosts that he's making a joke about the inferiority of American television? Oh, I see, it must be Oprah's "fluff" passing for substance... oh, huh, no, he doesn't talk about that. Well then, maybe it's Rosie's narcissism and hypocrisy... hmm, that's nowhere either. Um... maybe it's their politics?

See, any of these are legitimate reasons to dislike Oprah and/or Rosie and prefer Italian TV -- even if what you like about Italian TV is that it's pointless and doesn't pretend to be anything but pointless. I'm not saying this is the case because I HAVE NO IDEA whether it's the case. Because Gino decided that any ACTUAL QUALITATIVE ANALYSIS about the shows was unnecessary. Nope, let's just go ahead and prefer the pretty, booby, barely-dressed woman because CLEARLY she is superior. Look at her! She's young!! And you can see her BOOOOOOOOOBS!!!

I laugh at anyone who doesn't have anything more clever to respond with than hackneyed feminazi man-hater ball-crusher ugly ice queen (etc.) stereotypes.

The Law Fairy said...

Oh also, as to this:

its takes more drive to be a big $$ model than it takes for law school or med school, and just as much brains.

You know this from experience?

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

The Law Fairy,

Have you ever worked in the modeling industry on a full-time professional basis? Your puritanical stereotypes offend me as a woman.

If I want to "objectify" myself as a submissive in a BDSM relationship, I should be free to do that. If I want to be treated like a machine, as a burger-joint worker, I should be able to do that. If I should decide that being a professional "beauty" is a good way to make money without feeling like I have to give up my artistic endeavors, I shouldn't have to put up with ankle-grabbing from my fellow women.

A lot of so-called feminists give a lot of lip service to women's right to choose when it comes to abortion, executive careers, and enabling rape victims to be exploited further, but goodness forbid women should have the right to exploit their own bodies for their personal profit. I would rather exploit myself for money, than have some greedy executive exploit me and work me to the bone for HIS profit.

Do you understand why the turnover rate and substance abuse rate is so high in the industry? This is a stressful, demanding, difficult and knowledge intensive field -- if there is any expectation for long term success. Oh yeah, and most of us are self-employed, so we don't have the luxury of passing the buck.

I for one, I am fed up with the stereotypes about models being valued only for their looks. If this were true, fine artist would be bored to tears painting the same bodies over and over again, those awkward human clothes hangers in runway modeling wouldn't have jobs, the "real people" commercial modeling industry wouldn't exist, and neither would modeling jobs that require ugly people or atypical body parts. The industry values function as much as style (and sometimes more.) It demands responsibility for long-term success, insane amounts of networking and a keeping up with the trade. It's not for the squeamish.

ts takes more drive to be a big $$ model than it takes for law school or med school, and just as much brains.

You know this from experience?


Yes, "sweetie" I do, and to some extent it actually does.

Background: I've defended myself in court, and I used to help my the staff of Legal Services in Puerto Rico file stuff and do research when I was a tiny little girl (because it was fun.) I am aware of the rigors of the bar exam. I know about the emotional hell criminal lawyers have to deal with (and in fact this influences my art to this day.) I used to sit at work with mom when she split from there and opened her own firm.

I've worked in the modeling industry, on and off, since I was three. My mother, who was used to dealing with criminals on a near daily basis didn't feel I was "strong" enough for modeling. She forbade me to model after I won a pageant for my age division, and I did not return until I turned 17 and ran away from home to attend college before I finished high school. She briefly worked as a fine art model before I was born, so she knew about both worlds.

Any professional field with the potential for big money, also has the potential of creating a big hell for those who work in it.

Any idiot with tits and a smile can pretend to be a "model" for a few hours. It takes a lot to actually make a career out of it, especially if you crave the "big bucks". There are millions of pretty people, but very few who are pretty, responsible and intelligent.

If you don't have any basic knowledge about how to run a business and aren't sufficiently sophisticated in your knowledge about how the modeling industry works, you will be a mark for any sleazy agent, "model manager," and exploitative photographer that comes your way.

If you are going to model outside of the United States or in Latino markets within, you better know a minimum of two languages (I know Spanish and English fluently, with some proficiency in French, Italian and Portuguese, and limited proficiency in Polish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese and German.)

A majority of quality models are trained dancers or gymnasts, or are aspiring, and trained actors. Full-time models must also have strong customer-relations skills, the ability to memorize large amounts of information (especially models that aren't strictly photo models.) Many of us, are college educated and use this limited-lifespan career to fund our educations.

There is an expectation for models to be well-groomed, and maintain physically fit (plus-size models included.) The favored look for models is dictated by the art director of a particular campaign, the nature of modeling and customer demand. If people respond to ad campaigns with anorexic models, the machine will feed it. If people respond to photos with enhanced breasts, the machine will feed it. If people want more "real" and respond to those campaigns (as is the current trend,) the industry will adjust their standards accordingly. Consumers have the greatest power in the industry.

FYI: I am 5'3, 112lbs, my backside is larger than my chest, I am not what people call a beauty, I own a print shop and my agency still calls.

More info about me:
http://vaslittlecrow.livejournal.com/
http://vanesalittlecrow.com/model/
http://vaslittlecrow.com/model/

If you think I'm an exception, I'm not.

The Law Fairy said...

"puritanical stereotypes"? Such as?

Vanessa, your comment makes me sad, because it suggests that 1) you didn't bother reading what I wrote, but instead are REACTING to what you PERCEIVE modern feminism to stand for, and 2) you, like most people, appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding of feminism.

Also, your use of the diminutive "sweetie" puts you squarely in the corner of those who differentiate between "these" women and "those" women, as though we should be fighting each other instead of fighting a society that puts women at each other's throats to compete for the attention of men, as though that in and of itself is some grand prize worth fighting for. It's the same ridiculous dichotomy that drives ACTUALLY puritanical women (of which I am not one) to look down on prostitutes and strippers (which I do not). Why are we wasting time arguing when we could be standing up to the people who commodify us?

It frustrates me that, as someone who certainly appears very intelligent, accomplished, and driven, you're still not (from the appearance of your comment, at least) able to rise above the socially-imposed desire to be catty to other women. Go back and read what I actually wrote instead of what you THINK feminists say about models. I don't fault you or any other woman for making a living however she chooses. I do fault a society that judges women based solely on looks, which is what Gino was doing here, as I described earlier. If Gino was complimenting the Italian TV host for her accomplishments and hard work, I would not have jumped on him so harshly even if he was still gratuitously focused on her appearance. The problem is that's not what he did; he complimented her scanty clothes and good looks, and he amplified the rudeness of this by unfavorably comparing two other female talk show hosts with no discussion whatsoever of ANY characteristics other than physical attractiveness (and only a highly masculinist, discriminatory, racist standard of physical attractiveness at that). He pasted on his assertion about models working "harder" or "more" as a weak and transparent attempt to make it look like he wasn't being atrociously disrespectful. The hilarious irony is that I was never even talking about models. These women aren't models. They're talk show hosts. Yet Gino's own subsequent comments reveal that he sees all women as the same -- pretty faces, and nothing more. I am NOT saying that models are only pretty faces -- but posts like Gino's indicate that this is in fact what people like him believe. And this is a PROBLEM.

Similarly, it is rude of you to state that modeling requires "more" work than the law. I never said that either requires more -- I simply questioned GINO'S assertion that one did (because, frankly, there's no goddamn way he could possibly know this). I don't have experience in the modeling industry, and from your comment it appears you don't have experience in the legal profession (no offense, but helping around the office when you're a young child doesn't count. I helped out at my dad's (doctor) office while I was a teenager and wouldn't even pretend this qualifies me to say much of anything about the medical profession). I'm not contending that modeling is not hard work, though if you think I've done this do please point me to something I said in one of my comments from which this proposition follows, and I will retract it. Similarly, I can attest from personal experience that getting into one of the country's top law schools when you're 20 and becoming an attorney at an AmLaw 100 law firm by the age of 24 (as I did) is a FUCKLOAD of hard work. I never ever partied in college, I studied my ass off, I gave up huge chunks of my "best years" to accomplish my goals, and very nearly suffered several nervous breakdowns in the process. I don't think it's fair of EITHER of us to pretend we've worked harder than the other, when there's no way EITHER of us could know this. When we marginalize each other's accomplishments, neither of us wins, and the boys get to sit back and watch a good old-fashioned catfight. I, for one, won't give them the pleasure. I encourage you to visit a great blog, www.feministing.com, which I read daily. I think you'll find there a diverse group of feminists, some of whom are or have been models, some of whom do or have worked in the sex industry, some of whom have or had other careers (such as lawyers, scientists, doctors), and some of whom are or were stay-at-home mothers. The point of feminism isn't that some occupations are "bad" -- the point is that we need to value ALL women as human equals, regardless of their looks or their chosen profession. The answer to our problems is not for women to attack each other. It is for us collectively to stand up to a society that diminishes our importance and marginalizes our accomplishments.

I apologize if my comments appeared demeaning of your occupation. Please understand that this is the furthest thing from my mind. I'm attempting to criticize and correct the social forces that regard women's bodies as social capital to be traded and owned by men (or, on occasion, by other women). Let's not play right into their hands by fighting. I truly, honestly think it's great that you've had so much success as a model. I just wish that people (and by people, yes, I do mean lots of men, but other women as well) would respect ALL women as fully actualized human beings, even if they're not pretty or, hell, even smart enough to be a successful model. Like, say, if she's just a lowly billionaire talk show host with an audience of tens of millions, who happens to be a middle aged black woman who doesn't conform to conventional beauty myths.

little-cicero said...

I'm too late to get in on this one, but take some advice from someone who has learned from blogging experience: Anger is your rhetorical enemy.

Case in point: In saying sweetie, Gino was simply offering Law Fairy's redeemable qualities- that she is a good person. She was angry, so she took as if he called her "toots". I don't know which is worse- writing while angry or reading while angry.

I once posted a picture of a particularly sultry Brittney Spears on my blog, and was met with some opposition. Considering that the nipple seems to be exposed in these pictures, I suppose you deserve a feminist chewing-out. That being said, from the bottom of my heart I thank you, Gino. (;

RW said...

Look at the size of that brain!

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

"puritanical stereotypes"? Such as?

Such as the fact that you think it is wrong for me to use my sexuality as a way to earn a living. Puritans are anti-sex. I am not anti-sex.

1) you didn't bother reading what I wrote, but instead are REACTING to what you PERCEIVE modern feminism to stand for, and

I don't buy into modern feminism because it exploits women's weakness. I buy into flapper feminism. I can wear a miniskirt, drink a beer, and punch any man who treats me like a tart, and I also think grandma should be able to be fat, "unattractive" and do the same as I.

2) you, like most people, appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding of feminism.

A retrenchment society is not feminism, and modern is a retrenchment society.

Also, your use of the diminutive "sweetie" puts you squarely in the corner of those who differentiate between "these" women and "those" women,

No, it puts in the corner of ME. Why sweetie offend you. I call guys bitches, but they don't feel offended. Why is that?

as though we should be fighting each other instead of fighting a society that puts women at each other's throats to compete for the attention of men, as though that in and of itself is some grand prize worth fighting for.

You're one to speak ankle-grabber. Also, you're assuming I'm hetero.

Why are we wasting time arguing when we could be standing up to the people who commodify us?

So you're never gonna eat fast food again? People are commodofied, period. Every company has it's demographic it markets to. Quit being myopic and fight the real enemy rather than focusing on the scapegoat.

I actually wrote instead of what you THINK feminists say about models.

I subscribe to Ms., and I read your comment. I am well-aware of the stereotypes. Lock-in step.

I do fault a society that judges women based solely on looks,

Have you seen an Abercrombie and Fitch catalog lately? Do you know why the whole Metrosexual thing came to be. Do you know why men are increasingly getting plastic surgery. It's equal opportunity flesh-fest.

which is what Gino was doing here, as I described earlier.

He's a sexist pig and he loves it, but he is a consumer and he's consuming. As I told you earlier about consumer demand and the types of models the industry churn out.

If Gino was complimenting the Italian TV host for her accomplishments and hard work,

She isn't Italian. Did you even read his post? Yet you razz on me for not reading your comments... PULEEZE


He pasted on his assertion about models working "harder" or "more" as a weak and transparent attempt to make it look like he wasn't being atrociously disrespectful.

Well he was, but he pretty much disrespect everyone.

These women aren't models.

Actually, Oprah does model, and the "Italian host" who isn't, is also a model. So yeah... But this is a matter of marketing people in visual medium. So, do you act like an authority when you don't even know what you are saying.

Similarly, it is rude of you to state that modeling requires "more" work than the law.

I grew up with a lawyer who also modeled for a very short time, and while she thought law might be a good possibility for me, she thought I wasn't "strong" enough to be a model. Many civil lawyers have it much easier than models, and that's a fact. I've know lawyers who have to deal with stalkers and hitmen, with deadly results. I know of model who deal with these same hazards. So yeah, it's rude, but it's true in many cases.

I don't have experience in the modeling industry, and from your comment it appears you don't have experience in the legal profession (no offense, but helping around the office when you're a young child doesn't count.

Did you read the part about me defending myself in court? Law isn't a magical mystery court if you know where to go.

I helped out at my dad's (doctor) office while I was a teenager and wouldn't even pretend this qualifies me to say much of anything about the medical profession).

No, but if you real journals and peer studies, you may be able to communicate with doctors. This is what I did.

Similarly, I can attest from personal experience that getting into one of the country's top law schools when you're 20 and becoming an attorney at an AmLaw 100 law firm by the age of 24 (as I did) is a FUCKLOAD of hard work. I never ever partied in college, I studied my ass off, I gave up huge chunks of my "best years" to accomplish my goals, and very nearly suffered several nervous breakdowns in the process.

But that's because you are driven and willing to pay the price, as I am.

When we marginalize each other's accomplishments, neither of us wins, and the boys get to sit back and watch a good old-fashioned catfight.

Why are you so afraid of men, they're nothing more than underdeveloped women.

I encourage you to visit a great blog, www.feministing.com, which I read daily.

I am familiar with that blog and I'm not impressed. Until there's a feminist blog that gives women tips on how to use a handgun or knives, beat the shit out of a rapist, "talk like a man," encourage women to become stronger/faster/smarter to succeed rather than lowering standards to encourage success, and quit enabling women who allow themselves to be treated like victims, I shall remain unimpressed.

"I'm attempting to criticize and correct the social forces that regard women's bodies as social capital to be traded and owned by men (or, on occasion, by other women)."

Social forces don't change by whining. Social forces change by force. All people and their bodies in capitalist society are the property of someone else. Don't like this? Follow Marx's handbook and engage in violent revolution, to bring it down, or just don't engage in it. Don't like to see women treated like commercial bimbos on TV. Don't watch TV or change the channel. I don't Gino's posts offend you? Don't read them. Upset by images in fashion magazines, read something else. Do has way more power than say.

respect ALL women as fully actualized human beings, even if they're not pretty or, hell, even smart enough to be a successful model.

Respect begins with self.

Like, say, if she's just a lowly billionaire talk show host with an audience of tens of millions, who happens to be a middle aged black woman who doesn't conform to conventional beauty myths.

Yes, the same woman who puts "beautiful" skinny actresses on her show to tell them how wonderful they are. She's the same woman who puts on piles of makeup and yo-yo diets to be more palatable to those who produce her show. She isn't defying the standards, she's enabling them.

If you want to fight, don't fight me, or "a society that objectifies women." Fight with your dollars and put your action where your mouth is. Don't like what capitalism creates, decrease your participation and vote with your dollars.

The Law Fairy said...

Vanessa,

Well, I tried. Enjoy living your life in ignorance and slavery. I'm not going to bother correcting the legion of errors in your comment; you've made it clear that logic doesn't exist to you so I won't waste the bandwidth.

LC, Gino has called me "sweetie" before and he does it on purpose to be annoying.

kr said...

Argh.

She (the pictured model) chooses, presumably at least somewhat consciously, to control the thought patterns of others.

Gino chooses to give in to his biological nature and propigate objectification.

Although this habit of Gino's saddens me and irritates me (sometimes a lot), frankly, I have more problems with this woman leading men around by their wangs ... because the stuff I have read suggests het men cannot _not_ check women out. She is playing a power game the men can't win (and mostly don't seem to care to, of course). And her power game, like most power games, both subverts (she wins power/money/etc.) and plays into (men are largely in control of the power/money/etc.) the entire social system.

I don't like power games.

I also don't like the objectification, Gino, and agree with LF that your initial post was freaking ridiculous for it. She totally called you on the no-legit-well-rounded-context criticism. Especially since you seem to have posted the first part without checking any of those creds at all, and in fact went fact finding, by your own description, at least partly based on the premise that the woman was TOO attractive to be Italian.

Speaking of which, if you in the future want to knock on women who are not conventionally attractive, you could save yourself a lot of grief by acknowledging that the preference is YOURS, not some universal judgment handed down from on high. This was a basic presentational error at Andy's and here.

There are lots of men who like large women.

I have had rows with a few skinny-woman lovers (men) who have never realized that just because their preference meshes with an Accepted American Prejudice doesn't mean their preference is a legitimate basis to judge a fat woman as an overall person. Sometimes, I even get them to admit that. (No, I don't insist they magically become attracted to larger women. Just that they stop judging them as people--not as potential sex partners!--by their weight/shape.)

Perhaps that's really the thing. This woman is physically attractive to many men (probably even with more clothes on). But if she and the world can't take it beyond that, neither she nor anyone else is gonna get any long-term satisfaction out of any relationship involving her (/her image).

In a way, those Playboy "walk on the beach" interviews were at least a step in kind of the right direction (might have been a better one if they weren't so often manufactured). How's that for odd?

: P.

(Vanessa, haven't done much reading on lesbian attraction, if that applies. I am not trying to ignore the issue, I just can't speak to it.)

kr said...

Oh, and LF, I have it from the horse's mouth that he calls you sweetie--at least sometimes, or at least he used to--because he likes you. He doesn't call me that because he thinks I am probably a cold fish with no sense of humor.

(I tried to explain the offense of the term one time, offline.)

What the hell; I don't much like being thought of that way, but I do like not being called sweetie. It's a tradeoff.

Maybe he'll stop thinking you have a sense of humor soon, too ; ).

(LC, you do it--even once--and I am hella off your blog forever, and don't you forget it. That would rank under Not Funny. Also, Toots and Sweetie are two entirely different ideas.)

RW said...

Translation: Let us correct the way you think.

It was a fucking joke post, and not even a very good one at that, but out pops the thought police anyway.

People who don't like power games shouldn't play them on others.

Oh my God I hope I haven't prompted another over-wrought screed by the PC patrol...

The Law Fairy said...

Hmmm, that's interesting, rw.

So... let's say Gino put up some rant about black people that was rife with the "n" word and disgusting stereotypes, and which ended with a suggestion that we all go out and kill blackie and remove this blight from our society. Then let's say someone (me, or someone equally sensible) calls him out for his evil post. I guess that makes us "thought police," huh? Which must mean... the definition of "thought police"... must be something like "someone who believes all people should be treated with a baseline of respect and human dignity." Well, if that's the case, then I'll consider the term a compliment.

But, seriously, "PC" has got to be one of the most over-used terms ever. You'd probably call me "PC" if I asked you not to call my elderly grandmother "fatty." But, hey, if it makes you feel better to throw out terms like "PC" and "thought police" instead of actually making a substantive argument, then by all means go for it. Just don't expect your comment to make one whit of difference.

kr, thanks for posting so I'm not the only hairy-legged man-hating anti-America lib'rul Satanist dyke bitch hag in the comments ;)

RW said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
RW said...

That's an obfuscation because he didn't say anything about killing women and he didn't use the word "nigger" in any shape, reference, or in equal stead with his post about Pamela David, Oprah and Rosie. So your flight of fancy in playing a shell-game with the definition of "thought police" notwithstanding, if you go back to all you have said and all you have put forward, the gist of your argument is that you don't like what Gino was thinking, and your partner even started attaching restrictions to his speech by suggesting he define his observations in a more stringent manner.

Oh and btw - your observation on the use of the term "PC" is not an argument. You can't deflect the accuracy of the description by making an ad hominem against the term or the idea. It is valid whether you are tired of hearing it or not.

Those kind of courtroom tricks may work on the uninitiated layman, but in the court of ideas you're going to have to show a little more intellectual rigor than that.

Did anyone ever tell you you're beautiful when your pissed? Kiss me.

The Law Fairy said...

roflmao! "ad hominem against the term"? Seriously??

...

Nawwww... It's mean to pick on retards.

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

The Law Fairy,

Well, I tried. Enjoy living your life in ignorance and slavery.

And you enjoy life living your life victim. I enjoy being a slave to the print shop and graphic design business that I own, as much as you enjoy being a slave to the legal profession.

I'm not going to bother correcting the legion of errors in your comment; you've made it clear that logic doesn't exist to you so I won't waste the bandwidth.

In other words, you're too fucking lazy to read blog entries and responses completely, too ignorant about Latin American women and the beauty industry to say anything that doesn't sounds like you're spitting out the contents of a book full of academic hypothesis, and too fucking weak to stand up for yourself.

Better wasting bandwidth, than wasting my brains on celebrating my victimhood.

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

KR,

I don't think Gino was necessarily knocking women with his post, he was debunking an urban legend and pointing out a woman that he fancied. I don't necessarily think you will agree with me on this, but you seem to be a lot more rational about it than other posters, so I hope we can converse more deeply.

She (the pictured model) chooses, presumably at least somewhat consciously, to control the thought patterns of others.

Actually, I don't think she necessarily is. In Latin America, women are a lot more confident in our bodies than in the US, and we don't have the puritanical hangups they do here, so that's actually not abnormal dress for a vedette-style model, whereas here it would be super provocative. It's very much a cultural thing.

Vanessa, haven't done much reading on lesbian attraction, if that applies. I am not trying to ignore the issue, I just can't speak to it.

There are some very interesting articles on the subject, (though I can't recall them offhand... GRRRR) but the influence of Gay males and Lesbians are has largely been ignored in most scholarly studies of beauty and commerce. There is general a horrid anti-sexual/anti-male/anti-Judeo Christian bias and an assumption that heterosexual males run the industry (which is absolutely not true.)

To me, it's rather unfortunate that feminism has forgotten that Margaret Sanger (whose views on eugenics I don't agree with, but recognize she was a pioneer and champion of modern feminist theory) was a flapper, and that the most learned women throughout most of history were the whores. Whoredom is the mother of female priesthood (including nuns), models and non-mothers who work for their personal financial gain. So why do so many women devalue those use their beauty and sexuality for financial gain, when they should be thanking the women who pioneered this method of commerce for their liberation? It's not a popular view, sadly, but it really should be.

Why just read about Lesbian attraction? When it comes to attraction to anyone or anything, you either have it or not. At least that's how I look at it. Some like 'em fat, some like 'em skinny, some like 'em odd. Everyone has individual tastes.

The Law Fairy said...

Vanessa, my friends and I have a saying about people like you (and others we work with, including some of my friends) who buy into the idiocy of the capitalist patriarchy: you've drunk the Kool-Aid. Since you're so brilliant and smart and hard-working, I'm sure you catch the reference.

It's not laziness, it's not wanting to bang my head against a brick wall. Case in point:

1. I make a sarcastic remark which clearly indicates (to anyone who understands sarcasm) that I don't blame women in professions like yours for doing what they do, but I do blame patriarchal society for devaluing them simply for providing a service the market demands:

lol, nice -- yeah, it must be her fault she lives in a society where she's valued only for her looks. I mean, really, she is the one we ought to be blaming for making the rational decision to make more money, not the society that pays women more money for playing into men's immature fetishistic fantasies.

I LOVE how you people manage to turn it around. ALWAYS the woman's fault. I'd call it sophism except that sophism is more thoughtful.


2. You somehow (????? very bizarre) read this as an attack on your profession (sensitive much?) and accuse me of being "puritanical" and "ankle-grabbing" (I assume this is a catty remark somehow suggesting that I only wish I could be a model, or somesuch silly thing).

3. I respond that I have no problem with you or any woman doing the work you do, ask if I've said anything that suggested I did, offer to retract it, and apologize:

I don't fault you or any other woman for making a living however she chooses.
***
I'm not contending that modeling is not hard work, though if you think I've done this do please point me to something I said in one of my comments from which this proposition follows, and I will retract it.
***
I apologize if my comments appeared demeaning of your occupation. Please understand that this is the furthest thing from my mind.


4. You respond that I am "anti-sex" (again, bizarre) and again call me an "ankle-grabber."

This is what I meant when I said logic seems to elude you.

Also, "defending yourself in court" doesn't mean you have experience in the legal profession any more than I have experience in the modeling profession if I get hit on constantly (which I do), or that I have experience in the medical profession if I am able to correctly diagnose a stress headache and treat it with aspirin (which I can). If navigating the courts were half as simple as you insinuate it is, then you would be making six figures at age 24 for your legal work, like I was. But then, I guess if you're right, then the joke's on society and I'm making out like a robber baron. Woo hoo!

Also, I'm unable to verify your assertion that Oprah "does model." I Googled and Wikipedia'd her and didn't find any such reference. Source, please?

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

Since you're so brilliant and smart and hard-working, I'm sure you catch the reference.

Are we referring to the Jim Jones, or the Tom Wolfe reference? If you are referring to the former, I am not a cult member who would commit suicide for her cause. If you are referring to the later, I do find Merry Pranksters drinking their acid hilarious. But Kool-Aid is not for me. I drink water and I flavor it with what I will.

I make a sarcastic remark which clearly indicates (to anyone who understands sarcasm)

I'm autistic and I am not of the Mainland US. I'm glad you discriminate against me because your perceptual abilities and culture are different than mine.

I LOVE how you people manage to turn it around. ALWAYS the woman's fault.

When I was a proper Mormon girl, I used to get raped repeatedly and emotionally abused because I didn't know that I could protect myself, because it was wrong to use violence and it was never my fault -- a view espoused by feminism. It wasn't until I worked with models who actually punched guys who harassed them, filed police reports, and yelled at people who mistreated them, that the cycle of abuse stopped for me. You can't fight fire with a powder puff. You fight fire with fire.

I assume this is a catty remark somehow suggesting that I only wish I could be a model, or somesuch silly thing

When you assume you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me." Why would I imply that someone who opposes beauty for commerce want to be a model? Did I miss something?

Also, "defending yourself in court" doesn't mean you have experience in the legal profession

You'd be surprised...

I get hit on constantly (which I do)

I don't get hit on constantly at all. I'm either ugly or I carry myself in such a way that people know better than to fuck with me. Getting hit on has nothing to to with modeling. But knowing how to use a legal library, keeping up with legislation, Lexis Nexus, knowing the art of negotiation and debate, et cetera, does give you a rudimentary knowledge of the legal profession. Oh yeah, and the medical profession is the biggest cause of accidental death in the US, hence why I no longer participate in it.

. If navigating the courts were half as simple as you insinuate it is, then you would be making six figures at age 24 for your legal work, like I was.

Actually, it is, the biggest challenge of court is the stress, corruption and not getting killed. The reason why I chose not to do law, is the same reason you won't do modeling. Lack of interest. I would like to congratulate you on your achievements as a persistent debater and having a persuasive personality. However, having been surrounded by the like of MANY like you earning six or seven-figure salaries and oozing pompousness. I am not as easily impressed as a jaded judge looking for amusement from an attractive woman (which you claim to be,) or frightened people who don't know the law and/or choose to settle. Sorry, I am unmoved.

I could've chosen to be a lawyer or a college professor at age 24, in spite of my mental disability, and earn crazy money. But, being the hedonist I am, and choosing to experience life after escaping the Mormon church, I traveled across the Americas, only working enough to make enough money to build up my handmade pottery collection, keeping myself pretty, and fund my multidisciplinary art habit.

I chose not to be a slave to the corporate system, and became a model who only chose to take the assignments she fancied. I didn't model for males, I modeled for my freedom to live my childhood dreams as I saw fit. I'd rather be a service-provider to those I deem worthy of my services, than a cog in the machine.

If my body aided in fulfilling the desires of my mind and flesh while making me money, I see nothing wrong with it. Like that crazy bald Victorian cat once said, "Do as thou wilt, that is the whole of the law." I'm sure a Satanist (did I read that correctly, or were you being sarcastic) like you can understand that language.

Also, I'm unable to verify your assertion that Oprah "does model." I Googled and Wikipedia'd her and didn't find any such reference. Source, please?

You're Wikipedian and Googler, so that makes you a researcher! That's nice. Have you seen "O" magazine? Do you know who that robust Black woman on the cover the cover? Her name is Oprah Winfrey. She was photographed and was coated in a nice layer of makeup to be a cover model. You know, a model who appears on the cover of a magazine. That's one of the most coveted modeling jobs y'know.

Search engine research is all well and good, but sometimes, it just takes two seconds to look around in the real world and see what's in front of you.

RW said...

Over ruled. Saying I am a "retard" is also not an argument. That is (yet another) ad hominem.



kr posits the position from the "stuff she read" that men cannot _not_ check women out, and I get the French wave because I am a "retard"?

On this basis the presumption of your position starts with sweeping generalizations about men, widens to encompass a section of the population that contains people who have mental ailments, equates the 400+ year plight of blacks (from slavery to lynching to Jim Crow to institutionalized racism) in America to the condition of women as explained by a highly advantaged woman who recently completed seven or more years of specialized schooling so the crux of here case rests on the charge that someone who opposes her is a "retard."

That's pretty fucking brilliant. Toots.

The Law Fairy said...

Vanessa, at 8:01 a.m. today:

I enjoy being a slave to the print shop and graphic design business that I own

Vanessa, at 10:12 a.m. today:

I chose not to be a slave to the corporate system, and became a model who only chose to take the assignments she fancied.

Hehe. You can't even keep your own stories straight. The system's still the system, "sweetie," whether you think you "own" it or not.

Enjoy that Kool-Aid. As I promised above, I am laughing heartily at you folks.

RW said...

That's a pretty hairy reaction just because you're jealous of her tits.

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

I enjoy being a slave to the print shop and graphic design business that I own.

I'm a sole proprietorship. That's different than a corporation. Did you learn that in law school, or was your education a waste of money?

Hehe. You can't even keep your own stories straight. The system's still the system, "sweetie," whether you think you "own" it or not.

So it's okay for you to call me in a diminutive sexist term, but men and I can't do the same. Who's not keeping their story straight.

Enjoy that Kool-Aid.

Thanks, but no thanks. Although I don't drink that stuff, you obviously do, my Merry Prankster. Thanks for offering though, and enjoy your hallucinations.

As I promised above, I am laughing heartily at you folks.

Funny, I just pity you.

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

rw

That's a pretty hairy reaction just because you're jealous of her tits.

She's not jealous of anyone's tits, if anything she's afraid of her own. This woman has no internal self-esteem and needs to denigrate others to aggrandize her sense of worth.

We used to call these people bullies back in elementary school.

RW said...

I was just trying to get her nipples hard, vas... I mean I mean... get a rise out of her.

I honestly feel that, typical to the mindset I guess, we're dealing with a person with a case of relative morality. I would like to see her react the same to another blog wherein men are shown as "eye candy of the week" and so on. She complains about women being marginalized, but look at her studied reactions to my innocent questions - - I'm ignored and waved off. Marginalization is OK for some situations, obviously.

I have the impression she is very young, and hasn't been exposed to much more than her books and studies. I could be wrong, for sure. But her argument exited stage left years ago, and the new feminists take a totally different track at this issue. She's mimicing the arguments of a bygone age that have been fully discredited relative to their capacity to WORK.

No points were won here by her, this was all just posturing. What's disconcerting here is the ease with which she descends into personal attack and dismissive behavior.

Little by little she's taken on the characters of a troll...

RW said...

I know LOTS of trolls who are characters. I was supposed to type "characteristics" but hey - I'm a "retard".

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

RW,

The ironic part about all this is that she blames the heterosexist male societal structure for making this woman attractive to certain tastes, yet I was the first one to make a "hubba hubba" comment to this post, in Spanish no less. I guess a butchy Lesbian Puerto Rican model with hairy pits and legs (until the agency sends me to my next assignment this weekend -- and I have photographic evidence to prove this,) is the new face of US societal heterosexual male system. Um... Yeah.

Gino merely pointed out a hoax, and poked fun at his own culture and later in his post pointed out someone he felt was attractive. Yes, he did so in his usual piggy-self, but anyone who reads his blog knows that he's insensitive about EVERYTHING.

I usually ignore Gino's "Weaker Sex" posts because I'm not interested to be labeled as such and I don't need to pay attention to things I don't support unless it affects someone in a truly harmful manner. However this post had no such title, and as a Latina model who likes women, I am all for admiring the attributes of other Latina models who I find attractive.

little-cicero said...

Another lesson from experience: Don't think people are reading this far down the comment thread. It is tempting to grandstand, but the truth is- no one cares at this point- especially since the dialogue is more about personalities than issues! (:

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

little-cicero: You read. ;)

Seriously. this is mostly a spirited dialogue between a lawyer and a model at this point. Was there any doubt this wasn't about ego... er... personalities?

TwoFoot said...

Hey is it just me, or does the person who screams, "Don't objectify women for their bodies" have an avatar of a sexy little fairy minx?

kr said...

Vanessa--holy crap, you're autistic, for real? There is autism spectrum disorder in my family ... I am impressed with what your posts here suggest about your social functionality. I hope to God that isn't an insult to you; it is meant to honor what must have been a concentrated effort on the part of at least yourself and probably your mother.

LF: "ankle-grabber" means to imply, I believe, she perceives herself as striding along making her way as her own woman and she perceives you to be trying to hold her back or trip her up ... Vanessa?

LF: heh ; ) -- even at my most feminist, I don't think I've ever before accrued such an impressive set of titles!

RW/Vanessa:
Understanding the way the other sex (I here mean "biological gender") experiences attraction generally causes a lot of headscratching and misunderstandings, among the het or sometimes-het crowd at least. I have looked into how men perceive women because it was pertinent to my interests. The more reliable "stuff" (a continual failing of mine is that I don't retain sources well, just content, sorry) I have read/seen/heard--the stuff based on research on actual heterosexual men (not theoretical heterosexual men)--does seem to imply that men are preprogrammed to appreciate straight physicality in a way very separate from the overall personality etc. (which they do also appreciate--separately), whereas women tend to appreciate only whole packages (except at their most fertile time of month, when they have a stronger tendency to choose based on male physicality). This disparity clearly often leads to each side calling the other all sorts of unpleasant things that essentially mean "wrong," when all it is is "different," and both sides could learn to work with (and even learn some of?) the other side if we weren't so damn busy condemning each other.

RW, I hope you feel better since I added the female-generalization in there, too. 'Wasn't knocking on men in the first contribution, and obviously any generalization is only a generalization. 'Just wanted to put out there that biology might actually have something to say about this whole rhetorical explosion.

Vanessa:

I actually am not under that impression het men have much of any power in the fashion industry; among other things, it's a running joke with some folks I know that the female runway models look like boys for a reason ... and women often are agents etc for other models, yes?

I could probably agree that historically most of the powerful women got their power via sex (sold, withheld, etc.). That does imply that they needed to get their power from The Men, though ... this is the systemic assumption that underlies my objection to Pamela David's attire-choice. Somehow, we need to shift the entire interaction-matrix so people can give to and accept from each other instead of manipulating/taking from each other.

Your point about Latina women being less puritanical about their bodies is well taken ... and generally Latino men are less mentally tweaked about admitting they are being led about by them, is my impression ;)? Her leading then would not be as cynical as I painted it. I apologize for the assumption of cynicism.

Lessee ... oh, and I didn't think Gino was knocking on "women" ... but he does sometimes imply that women he considers pretty are worth more than other women, and that certainly seems to have been the case here. (And RW, I wasn't telling Gino to think differently--just to recognize that his thoughts are his own, not universal UberThoughts, and not even universal male thoughts. He's taken some extra flak because he presented that inaccurately recently, and I was pointing out the disconnect, and the workaround.)

'Think that's about it for now.

Flame on : P ...

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

it is meant to honor what must have been a concentrated effort on the part of at least yourself and probably your mother.

It is a high compliment and there was a huge effort on mom's part. I was completely useless socially and verbally until age 6, but my mom knew I was smarter than I look. Back then, there was no "mainstreaming" but my mom is an unconventional universal genius (turned down Mensa because she thought it was dorky - heh!) has a degree in child psychology (in addition to becoming a criminal attorney) and she did some experimental behavior modification treatments on me that would be considered inhumane by today's standards. However, it was preferrable to alternative back of being left to rot in the funny hourse. I also found a fantastic therapist at age 22 who taught me some of the basics. I am still pretty damn socially awkward.

Striding along making her way as her own woman and she perceives you to be trying to hold her back or trip her up ... Vanessa?

Yes. Being mixed race, queer and a "retard," I've met enough to recognize them when I see them. Oh yeah, and the bullies too.

and both sides could learn to work with (and even learn some of?) the other side if we weren't so damn busy condemning each other.

We are on the same wavelength here.

it's a running joke with some folks I know that the female runway models look like boys for a reason ... and women often are agents etc for other models, yes?

Correct, and hence why I am always baffled by the contention that the beauty industry is specifically for the pleasure of straight men.

Somehow, we need to shift the entire interaction-matrix so people can give to and accept from each other instead of manipulating/taking from each other.

While I agree with you, the fact is that we live in a capitalist society here in the US and that the nature of capitalism is that all interactions ultimately come down to commerce not gender. All humans, men and women alike are commodities in this type of system.

and generally Latino men are less mentally tweaked about admitting they are being led about by them, is my impression ;)? Her leading then would not be as cynical as I painted it. I apologize for the assumption of cynicism.

The reason why men are "macho" in Hispanic culture is because the matriarchy pretty much leaves them very little non-superficial power. It is not very useful to judge past cultures, or foreign cultures by the standards of here and now, if that makes any sense.

Thank you for your excellent insights.

Kal said...

Hmm...

To comment or not to comment?

No, nope. Don't think I'm gonna do it.

I'll be back when we're back on shooting intruders.

The Law Fairy said...

twofoot,

You appear to suffer from an inability to comprehend what you read, just like Vanessa (which I say not because of any learning disorders anyone may have, but because neither of you has read and understood what I said) -- although you at least waste less space with your errors.

Maybe typing in bold might get you to understand? Women can dress however they want. Women can wear burkas or bikinis for all I care. My only point is that all women should be respected equally without regard for how they look or dress.

The irony is that, like Vanessa, I think women should get to wear whatever we damn well please. And, like Vanessa, I think we should be able to punch any man who takes it upon himself to be an asshole, because of how we look or for any other reason. See, what I did here was I verbally punched Gino because he was acting like an asshole based on how women looked. If Vanessa doesn't want to punch him, whatever, but I don't know why she would be so "ankle-grabbing" and try to shut me down when I opt to do so. I guess she's not as principled as she claims.

RW, a troll is someone who hops onto a blog and flames with the intent to cause disruption -- a troll is "inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, absurd, or off-topic" and posts with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. My intent was to point out to Gino that he was being rude and disrespectful. Others then jumped on me with misinformation about my own beliefs -- meaning *I* am not the troll here.

Gino asked me to read to his blog. If he asks me to leave, I'll do so -- frankly, after the utter rudeness, disrespect, vitriol, and baseless attacks on my character to which his other readers have subjected me, I might not even wait for that request. You people have some major growing up to do.

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

You appear to suffer from an inability to comprehend what you read, just like Vanessa (which I say not because of any learning disorders anyone may have,

But because it takes one to know one, and because you are egomaniacal and condescending to boot. If you were such a keen reader, why the hell haven't you spelled my name correctly once? It's on every post I've made. Further proof of this is the fact that you kept calling Pamela David, "the Italian host."

My only point is that all women should be respected equally without regard for how they look or dress.

So you don't mind if I guy wearing only a trenchcoat flashes you with CBT device on cock, or if some man wears a shirt that says "suck my dick and breed, bitches," at a feminist/pro-life rally. I mean all people, not just women, should be treated equally, and as a result, men should be respected equally regardless of how they look and dress.

Gino because he was acting like an asshole based on how women looked.

Well, I was acting horny like an asshole too when I first saw the images of Ms. David. In fact, I, a woman, was the first person to reply, but you didn't treat me with the hysterical puritanism you displayed, until I opened my mouth about modeling. That's pretty damn sexist don't you think? Also, you didn't seem to notice that Gino was debunking a hoax email. You were reacting to the email itself and pretty much ignoring the rest of the context because, you cannot handle the fact that most men are visually aroused by the nature of how they are biologically-wired. This is what I meant by you being anti-sex, and now that I think of it, sexist! I'm sure you've never said to anyone, "Wow, he's attractive."

I don't know why she would be so "ankle-grabbing" and try to shut me down when I opt to do so. I guess she's not as principled as she claims.

Since when did I claim I am principled, kettle? As for shutting you down, it's because frankly, it's not because you are "standing up" to Gino and heterosexist male oppression, it's because you are full of shit and simply regurgitate academic hypothesis rather than actually form an independent thought. If you really cared about the issue, you'd stick to promoting and reading blogs that are affirming to your beliefs? Don't like men to make decision about your vulva/womb, then don't be the woman who makes decisions about their penises/testicles.

KR said about the same thing you did, but unlike you, she actually seemed to be formulating her thoughts rationally, with a touch of actual life experience, and a balanced perspective.

"inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, absurd, or off-topic" and posts with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. My intent was to point out to Gino that he was being rude and disrespectful.

Oh HIS blog. On HIS opinion space. Hmmm... I guess it's okay to be rude and disrespectful to him if you are a woman, because women cannot be troll. People are equal, but they should be governed by separate sets of rules. Right?

I might not even wait for that request. You people have some major growing up to do.

If you don't like the heat, why are you in the kitchen? Besides, what did Gino ever do to you? As far as I could tell, he even stood up for you in his weird way. Just because I think you are having a temper tantrum and you don't seem to have a grasp of the issue beyond a superficial academic gloss, it doesn't mean I think you are an evil person, I just don't agree with with you. Do you think I am a evil person because you disagree with my opinion?

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

pro-life should've been pro-choice.

Gino said...

LawFairy,
now you know how i feel at andy's.
but i still refrain from personal attacks. and it hasnt stopped me from returning there,either.

yes, dea... er...(insert heartfelt term of friendly affection of your choice here), i do enjoy your presence, here and elsewere, and you are always welcome here. it is my blog, and i say so.
but the choice is ultimately yours to make. i respect that.

The Law Fairy said...

VANESA,

Sorry for misspelling your name and misunderstanding Gino's correction that the host, earlier referred to as Italian, is actually Latin. However, my misspelling of your name and referring to Pamela as an "Italian host" are not substantive errors. That is to say, they do not alter the substance of my comments. Your continued misreading of what I've said and obstinate refusal to correct your errors is importantly different in this regard. It also suggests to me that you'd have a very hard time becoming a lawyer until you're disabused of these bad habits. Getting sued doesn't make you logical.

YOU are attempting to be the "thought police" (as others here have accused me of being) by trying to yell me down so my valid objections aren't heard. Of course it's Gino's blog -- he comments on my blog as well and sometimes disagrees with me there, and on Andy's blog. He makes comments open to the public, and there's nothing wrong with me taking him to task for making sexist remarks. The "if you don't like it, don't read it" applies just as much to you -- don't like my feminist comments, ignore them. But, you see, it doesn't work that way. If we never argued, we'd never learn. Surely you're not anti-education? And, by the way, why does "feminism" (a term you hopelessly abuse) threaten you so much?

you are full of shit and simply regurgitate academic hypothesis rather than actually form an independent thought

Wow. You really don't know shit about me. For your info, I was raised in a far-right religious cult and WELL into my teenage years I was as homophobic, racist, sexist, and anti-sex as they come. I WAS that person wearing the idiotic pro-life shirt. I protested at abortion clinics and called women "whores" and called gay people "fags" and all kinds of other horrendous sins. Then I grew up and changed. I only became a feminist when I observed sexism through my real-life experiences (and resisted it kicking and screaming). Frankly, I'm disappointed in myself that I was unable to empathize with others before I came up against oppression myself. I consider it a failing of mine as a human being that I wasn't able to become a feminist from an academic standpoint. But, please, do continue to throw out your half-assed assumptions about how I formed my views. You know what happens when you assume...

Also:

1. Please show me where I was rude and disrespectful to Gino.

2. I'm not the one having a temper tantrum here. Just because a woman argues, doesn't mean she's having a temper tantrum. Your accusation has highly sexist connotations.

3. I didn't respond to your comment up top because it wasn't relevant. I have no major inherent problem with liking the way women look (though I do think we should have equal appreciation for the male form). I do have a problem with disrespecting women based on their looks. I mean, do I seriously have to repeat this a million times before it gets through to you?

4. Pretty much everyone here has been egomaniacal and condescending to me, except kr. If I've reciprocated, you really can't blame me.

5. The clothing choices you mention are in some sense themselves disrespectful, but even so, your point is a total non sequitur. Gino didn't put up a picture of a woman wearing a "Castrate Men" t-shirt and gripe about it -- hell, if he had, I would have WAAAAAAY less issues with this post. If you're looking for the male corollary to my contentions, try going to a gay club. And yeah, I don't disrespect the men in there for wearing tight, sequin-y clothing, or dresses, or whatever. I think men should be free to wear whatever they want -- suits, skirts, whatever. Oh, whoops, I guess that means I'm not being sexist. Darn, one less name you can call me (not that the facts have ever stood in your way).

6. Sorry I misread your earlier comments as meaning you were principled. I take it, then, you are not principled?

7. KR has not said the same thing as me. We agree on one or two major points but disagree on many others. Strangely enough, she doesn't take this and twist it into me saying she shouldn't be [X profession] and grabbing at her ankles to, um, trip her (cause THAT'S not sexist imagery). Imagine.

8. Why does Gino have to "do" something "to me" in order for me to tell him he's doing something disrespectful?

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

It also suggests to me that you'd have a very hard time becoming a lawyer until you're disabused of these bad habits.

Why would I want to become a lawyer? I am happy with my lot in life, just as you are.

Getting sued doesn't make you logical.

No, but defending yourself in a seemingly clear-cut criminal case, where you got caught on TV committing the crime and fleeing from the police, with a ton of witnesses, and a judge who is out to make an example of you, does.

The "if you don't like it, don't read it" applies just as much to you -- don't like my feminist comments, ignore them.

I am reading them because I am interested. I associate with all sorts of people. I do want to understand where YOU come from, not the opinion of the Feministing blog, not feminist theory, but you are reading are coming from. How can I not be defensive, angry and pissy, when you react like that to legitimate questions. You also need to understand, I am very protective of people I care about. I reacted the way I did to you, because I perceived that you were disrespecting Gino. I've never met him in person, but I consider him my friend. Wouldn't you stand up for a friend. Read your own posts from my perspective, to understand why I would perceive you that way.


2. I'm not the one having a temper tantrum here. Just because a woman argues, doesn't mean she's having a temper tantrum. Your accusation has highly sexist connotations.


No, it does not have a sexist connotation at all. My friend Bruce had a tantrum based on a blog I made yesterday relating to this issue, and he is a man. Why would you assume that women arguing would be perceived as having a tantrum or being part of a catfight? Do you really believe that people view you that way? I have a horrifying temper, and I am not ashamed of that part of me, because that's who I am. We both are strong-willed, so why do you think that could be a bad thing? It's not. My opinion of you is not based on society, it's based on my personal perception, as yours is of mine.

(though I do think we should have equal appreciation for the male form). I do have a problem with disrespecting women based on their looks. I mean, do I seriously have to repeat this a million times before it gets through to you?

Men are not forms, and neither are women, they are people. These people live in a capitalist society that socializes them into being commodities, and therefore objectifies humanity. I do get it, but I think it goes far beyond gender oppression, and that is why I exploit my body for my profit.

Pretty much everyone here has been egomaniacal and condescending to me, except kr. If I've reciprocated, you really can't blame me.

Well, yes, that's true. I even poked fun of that fact in my reply to little-cicero where I said, "Seriously. this is mostly a spirited dialogue between a lawyer and a model at this point. Was there any doubt this wasn't about ego... er... personalities?"

We are very strong-willed, or egotistical, and that is why when we clash, it's fucking brutal. I have no shame in having my ego, and neither should you. We earned it.

YOU are attempting to be the "thought police"

I never denied I was. Someone else said that about you, not I.

And, by the way, why does "feminism" (a term you hopelessly abuse) threaten you so much?

It doesn't threaten me at all. I just feel that term has been devalued and watered down for the benefit of the weakest element of the female half of society. As someone who grew up with an actual feminist, it pains me to see what a whimper it has become. Also, I don't think that the battle is about gender anymore -- women have power as long as they wield it. The true enemy is dehumanization of society as a whole. I'm not afraid of words. I've been called nigger, spic, injun, retard, bitch, dyke, sellout, feminist, reactionary, jesus freak, devil worshipper, you name it. Ultimately, these are just words, opinions, labels, and if you don't buy them they don't affect you. If you do buy them, choose the labels carefully and more power to you. The power is in the action behind the word, not the word itself.

I was raised in a far-right religious cult and WELL into my teenage years I was as homophobic, racist, sexist, and anti-sex as they come.

Why didn't you mention that when I told you I was trapped in the Mormon church at a younger age. I might've been a lot more sympathetic to where you come from, because I've been there too. I don't know about you, because you didn't tell me. I told you about me, because I want you to see where I am coming from as well.

But, please, do continue to throw out your half-assed assumptions about how I formed my views.

That's fair, and I ask that you do the same for me.

The clothing choices you mention are in some sense themselves disrespectful,

Non sequitir or not, if it is unacceptable a man to dress in a manner that is inappropriate for the context, why should women be allowed to do the same?

If you're looking for the male corollary to my contentions, try going to a gay club.

I mentioned I was gay, right?

And yeah, I don't disrespect the men in there for wearing tight, sequin-y clothing, or dresses, or whatever.

I do! I call them girlfriend and bitches, I razz them if their clothes aren't cute enough, and they call me a dyke right back, and my friend gets called a fag hag by all of us, my husband (long story) acts like a fag, and some random bi guy tries to pinch his ass. We all laugh about it. I make fun of everyone, but not all rudeness is born out of malice.

Sorry I misread your earlier comments as meaning you were principled. I take it, then, you are not principled?

What do you think? I have my principles, but ultimately I'm an abrasive bitch who exploits the system for her gain as much as possible, while still following the law and being upfront when I am about to be an ass to someone else. Maybe that is principled if you are a LaVeyian, but, I'm not.

Strangely enough, she doesn't take this and twist it into me saying she shouldn't be [X profession] and grabbing at her ankles to, um, trip her (cause THAT'S not sexist imagery). Imagine.

Well, no, because the situation is different between her and I. And, it ankle grabbing is not sexist image, it comes from slave-boat imagery regarding slaves in ships trying to pull people back who were trying to escape. It's not a black or white thing either. Slaves come in all colors. So technically, it is imagery of overall self-oppression.

Why does Gino have to "do" something "to me" in order for me to tell him he's doing something disrespectful?

Why is he disrespectful for liking a woman's body? From your personal perspective. He also likes brains, and has told me that my opinions have a deep influence on him a lot of times. I am looking at the big picture here.

kr said...

Vanesa:
spelled my name correctly
Mea Culpa, too. Sorry!

It is a high compliment
Phew! I remember the efforts to get my brother functional ... he went the more stereotypical autistic-career route, and is now a long-haired freaky-smart mathematician ...

capitalist society
Yes ... but I dream big ;). I don't think commodification is either healthy or inevitable ... and the only way to change it is from individuals making consistent choices against it.

Hispanic culture ... matriarchy pretty much leaves them very little non-superficial power. It is not very useful to judge past cultures, or foreign cultures by the standards of here and now, if that makes any sense.
It makes sense, I just don't agree ;).
I think that matriarchy is just as bad as patriarchy (albeit there seems to be generally less actual physical bloodletting, which is something to be considered(!)) ... and I think it is sad when any group of people is so disempowered that they have to live with only the appearance of power.
(I used to get in trouble with my roommate in college for judging historically-rooted Asian assumptions about the subordinance of the individual to society, too, and in many ways it can be argued that my judgments of American society are somewhat of a foreign society, since I share so few of its views ... I am an equal-opportunity social systems judge ;). I even get pretty tempermental about my own church's culture, which is probably the culture I am most affiliated with.) (I am Roman Catholic.)


Law Fairy:
We agree on one or two major points but disagree on many others.
Ah, but at least it's not quite as silly as when people think I am equivalent to LC ;). Actually, though, you were the first to connect us in this round, with that hilarious set of stereotypes ...


And, just to be SOOOO off-topic, I forgot "troll" was an internet term and wondered why we were bringing up big ugly brutes who eat people and turn to stone in sunlight ...


Hey, Gino, toss some of your popcorn and peanuts this way, huh? You must be having a grand time up in the bleachers ;).

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

Mea Culpa, too. Sorry!

No bigs, everyone mucks up my name. I just took issue with Law Fairy on the basis of the reading stab.

Phew! I remember the efforts to get my brother functional ... he went the more stereotypical autistic-career route, and is now a long-haired freaky-smart mathematician ...

That is awesome!

I don't think commodification is either healthy or inevitable ... and the only way to change it is from individuals making consistent choices against it.

And personally, I think that is an awesome plan if it works for you.

It makes sense, I just don't agree ;).

What else is new!

I think that matriarchy is just as bad as patriarchy

Agreed! But while the system is there, I'll run with it. Personally, I think egalitarian society would be nice, but so would utopia, and it's a LOOOOONG road for that.

(albeit there seems to be generally less actual physical bloodletting, which is something to be considered(!))

Umm... that's actually not true. I mean look at Queen Elizabeth/Maggie Thatcher, or the kind of revolutions that happen in Latin America, the islands in Oceania, non-Muslim Africa and Italy/Spain and much of Indigenous America when they were still matriarchial. Matriarchal societies are just as bloody in a different than patriarchies. Matriarchies do it for your own good and the good of society (Queen Isabella of Spain, ritual tribal warfare,) while partriarchies just do it to steal what rightfully belongs to you, (American Revolution, Ghengis Khan.) Come to think of it, even egalitarian society can be pretty bloody because society fights for the sake of equality (Revolutionary France.)

... and I think it is sad when any group of people is so disempowered that they have to live with only the appearance of power.

It really is.

(I used to get in trouble with my roommate in college for judging historically-rooted Asian assumptions about the subordinance of the individual to society, too, and in many ways it can be argued that my judgments of American society are somewhat of a foreign society, since I share so few of its views ... I am an equal-opportunity social systems judge ;).

I like you already.

I even get pretty tempermental about my own church's culture, which is probably the culture I am most affiliated with.) (I am Roman Catholic.)

Amen!

Nice talking to you, can I have a hot dog and soda pop with my popcorn and peanuts?

little-cicero said...

Women are objects. They exist to cook our meals, sweep our floors and have sex with us.

If that doesn't unite you feminists, I don't know what will! (:

It feels good to be a peacemaker! I feel like Jimmy Carter!

TwoFoot said...

Amen! Preach on! Gino is an @$$hole! It's part of his charm.

Now, all that other crap aside, all I can say is this; if a woman chooses to dress like a 2 dollar streetwalker, don't be surprised or miffed when the last thing on my mind is discussing complicated political or social issues. You honestly think a person that dresses like Britney Spears is go to be taken seriously on anything from a flat tax to how to win a war? Flaunt a body like it's a piece of meat, and that's exactly how it's going to be seen.

By the way Gino, is it always so loud around here? Sheesh, see what happens when you give women the right to vote... Next thing ya know they are getting all uppity and holier than thou.

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

little-cicero: Fair enough, as long as you man things are willing to serve as our unquestioning deep wallets, who unplug our toilets, do all the manual labor and are willing to accept a whap on the head with an iron skillet should you look at any other female objects. What? No way? Here's some cleavage and some homemade cookies, sugar. Pretty isn't it. Good boy. ;)

twofoot: In the USA, pretty much. But in the interest of fairness, if a guy is wearing nothing but a bulging thong, muscles and a tan, he will be taken just as seriously as the curcy woman wearing slutwear. It's not about gender, it's about distracting lumps of sexy flesh.

It's not always so loud here. It's usually pretty jovial.

And as for voting, hey, you penile-encumbered fuckers can't blame us for electing Franklin Pierce and or James "I Was Such a Total Waffler that I Made Licoln Look Like the Greatest President Ever" Buchanan. Geez, with that kind of judgement, no one should have the right to vote. I guess we should all give up and be Commies before Hilary becomes President. :D

twofoot said...

LOL... Vanesa, the voting thing was a joke, mostly. I sincerely believe there should be qualifications for voting. Civics tests for example. Not being on the dole. Being able to follow an arrow for a quarter of an inch.

But I would settle for civics tests. If a person doesn't know the three branches of gummint, what they do and how they interact, they don't need to be anywhere near a voting booth.

As for the bulging thong, no, sorry. I don't take male bimbos any more serious than I do female. See? I am a fairminded guy.

As for Hillary, sheesh, being commies is certainly one way to make sure the wicked witch of the North is elected.

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

twofoot: LOL... Vanesa, the voting thing was a joke, mostly.

I know, and that's why I had to run with it. How could I resist such a perfect lead in. HEH! Otherwise, I do agree with you on the civics test.

As for the bulging thong, no, sorry. I don't take male bimbos any more serious than I do female. See? I am a fairminded guy.

I see this.

As for Hillary, sheesh, being commies is certainly one way to make sure the wicked witch of the North is elected.

Good point.

little-cicero said...

Thanks Vanessa! Don't forget to put the baking soda in the fridge and repeal the 19th!

Brian said...

If you guys and gals ever want to get together in person and get rip-roaring drunk, I'm offering up my house.

Seriously. This is awesome.

Gino, I am in awe of your ability to attract such diverse and passionate readers/commenters. Great job, man.

Gino said...

Women are objects. They exist to cook our meals, sweep our floors and have sex with us.

and dont forget the laundry!


Hey, Gino, toss some of your popcorn and peanuts this way, huh? You must be having a grand time up in the bleachers ;).

see how demanding of men they can be?

Gino said...

Gino, I am in awe of your ability to attract such diverse and passionate readers/commenters. Great job, man.

it must be my charm. :)

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

little-cicero: Sure, we can get the 19th repealed or emasculated... er... spayed, no problem. The government and the Supreme Court is pretty much doing a great job neutering the Constitution as it is. Nobody is going to miss one more pesky amendment.

I'll get the baking soda, but you need to shovel the snow or it's the rolling pin for you.

brian: That would be cool! I am like this sober anyway and I love a good party, but I can't drink beer because I'm gluten-intolerant, and I turn into an emo goth when I'm plastered. Nobody wants that.

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

and dont forget the laundry!

Only if you don't forget to sweep the ice dams off the roof. Otherwise, you are fixing the leaks. ;)

Gino, this WOULD be a great party.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I have a complaint.

The pics are too dham small and the resolution poor.
The conversation dated.

[insert beer chuggin smilie here.]

Oh yeah make dham sure its a Canadian beer.....American beer is for wussies. :o)

Brian said...

I will have both gluten-free and Canadian beer on hand. Hell, I can make gluten free, and if my wife helps, it'll be half-Canadian.

kr said...

From extremely limited experience, I seem to talk EVEN MORE when I get alcohol in me--I'll stick with the root beer ;).

The Law Fairy said...

Vanesa, catching up late here but I'll just say, from your last comment it looks like we have more common ground than we might have thought starting out. I rarely agree with anyone about very much at all, so that's a pretty good starting point.

I appreciate your sarcasm even if I disagree with the direction it goes in (I personally, though not a communist, think capitalist commodification is one of the chief evils in the world -- and that's from the Bible, peeps).

For what it's worth, you remind me in some ways of one of my best friends -- we disagree to the point of yelling quite often. And it's awesome. One of my favorite things to do is argue. Which is probably super unhealthy.

And I definitely have no shame in having an ego. Except when I'm in church. Which I attend every Sunday.

I personally liked the volume on this one. I'm a big fan of loud women.

kr, as for the name-calling -- just trying to spread the love ;)

PaleoMedic said...

Anonymous,

Fat Tire. New Belgium Brewery, Fort Collins Colorado. All American. All beer. None of that Budweiser, Miller crud. Woot!

Vanesa Littlecrow W. said...

I rarely agree with anyone about very much at all, so that's a pretty good starting point.

I'm easy, I'm just Puerto Rican.

I appreciate your sarcasm even if I disagree with the direction it goes in (I personally, though not a communist, think capitalist commodification is one of the chief evils in the world -- and that's from the Bible, peeps).

Sarcasm doesn't really come natural to me, and it is really hard to read, so I take that as a compliment. I think capitalism is evil, but then again, I think most everything is evil.

Which is probably super unhealthy.

I'm Puerto Rican. We don't consider arguing unhealthy. It's a the national pastime!

I'm a big fan of loud women.

Bitches is fun.

kr said...

kr, as for the name-calling -- just trying to spread the love ;)
I heard you, girlfriend ;). 'Sall good.

Sanjay said...

Voh she is very very impressing what are her dress is very great she is very very sexy girl.

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