Wednesday, September 05, 2007

I'm On Board

"We need a new foreign policy that says we mind our own business, protect our country and defend our borders."

Ron Paul
GOP Debate
New Hampshire
September 5,2007

68 comments:

Mercy Now said...

According to Palm Boy, this guy doesn't think terrorism is a threat. I've not paid attention yet since there are abundance of candidates.

RW said...

And, gino, you shall now be allowed the experience of having your candidate say he wants to protect our country and defend our borders, only to have neocons tell you what they just heard him say is that he won't protect our country or defend our borders.

It is ever the same. Once those fellow Republicans and "old friends" of yours obfuscate his arguments to propel their failed agenda further at the expense of your sanity, the next thing you know it will occur to you that conservatives are just as full of shit as liberals and you'll stop participating in politics altogether.

Oh nice going. Welcome to the road to ruin...

Kris said...

I will not be voting this election if it is between Hitlery and anyone else other than Ron Paul or Tom Tancredo. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still evil.

Gino said...

worry not, RW.
i dont take the shit serious any more.
i left active politics, never to return, but i cant stop watching the game.

as for paul: i've decided to register GOP. i know it'll make me feel dirty, but at least i get to vote for somebody who is saying what needs to be said.
not that it will make any difference in november.

but ya know, you still gotta cheer when your team makes a first down, even when they're behind by 4 touchdowns with 2 minutes left to play.

Kal said...

Fred fred fred fred fred fred fred fred fred fred fred fred fred fred

(You've got to get elected first before you get to do something...)

Gino said...

ya know kal,
like a girlie show, you keep waiting for the star dancer to take the stage, and when she finally does reach the pole, you realize she really aint that hot.

well, the ugly dame is approaching your end of the rail now. wont be long before you give up your seat and head for the door.

nobody likes a tease cause they never live up to their hype, anyway.

and i'll call the ball now:
guiliani gives The Speech next summer.

Brian said...

As you know, I am down with Dr. No, which is to say I am as enthusiastic about him as I am humanly capable of being about any actual politician. Hell I even sent him a few bucks.

But if we're taking bets, my money's on Romney. McCain peaked in 2000, southerners/evangelicals won't vote for Giuliani, and this silly Fred Thompson thing will blow over once everybody starts seeing footage of his performance in "Last Best Chance".

Brian said...

Just to clarify, I am saying that Romney will be the GOP nominee. And then Hillary will beat him like a redheaded stepchild.

Kal said...

I think Iron Eagle III will be his (Fred's) undoing...

Mitt will do better than many people give him credit for right now, plus he's exactly the kind of guy who could be everyone's second choice and get the nomination.

But man, Fred looks the part.

Fred fred fred fred fred fred fred...

Andy said...

Nooooo!!!!!! this man is a NUTCASE. He wants to get rid of the Department of Education and privatize public schools! He suggested 9/11 might not have happened had we been allowed to carry firearms on airliners like the 2nd amendment supposedly guarantees. No, NUTCASE. He wants to abolish the IRS! I mean, hey, no one likes paying taxes, but seriously...this is a man who thinks the government shouldn't do ANYTHING. That's madness. I may not completely trust federal bureaucracies, but I'll almost always trust them more than a corporation whose first priority is profit. No, no, no. Not this guy. Wackjob. Lunatic.

Gino said...

andy: liberty will set you free.

Brian said...

Andy,

1) Please explain how four guys with boxcutters could bring down a plane if ONE PERSON with a lawful firearm were present and not inclined to die in a fiery plane crash.

2) The republic existed for nearly a century and a half without the IRS (in fact, under a constitution that EXPRESSLY FORBID taxation of income). Please explain why doing away with such a system is necessarily "nutty".

3) There was no cabinet level department of education in the US until 1979 (and no umbrella department including it until 1953.) Do you think that the thousands of locally funded and administered educational systems in this country will collapse without it?

kris said...

Well put, Brian.

Kris said...

http://stopthelie.com/taxes.html

kr said...

Oooh, Andy, I'm with Brian et al on two of those three points (the IRS and national "education"). Do you have any more convincing ones?

I'm not all down with just anyone carrying guns on a plane--those guys, for instance, would then have had guns instead of boxcutters, which negates that question. (And dammit, getting cut and/or killed with a boxcutter SUCKS, but shouldn't SOMEBODY have figured out that the game had changed since the 70s??? SHIT! Since when is it a good idea to let anyone into the cockpit ever??) I think airmarshals should be armed, and on every flight.

But it wouldn't have helped with 9-11, since the buildings came down with planted explosives anyhow.

Gino said...

i forgot about those planted explosives.
wasnt it cheney who put them there?

Brian said...

I'll admit my concealed carry on airliners argument is the weakest of the three, but I figured Andy deserved to have all of his points addressed. And actually, I have no problem with a policy restricting or prohibiting the carrying of firearms in the passenger compartment.

I just think it should be an airline policy, not a government one.

kr said...

gino--seriously. Take it seriously.

We'll probably never know the full extent of collusion between members of the gvt (yes Cheney) and high-end business (thanks in no small part to the destruction of WTC 7), but those buildings didn't come down because of jetfuel. As my favorite commentary mentions, laws of nature can't be changed. Jet fuel CANNOT, even in a clean, controlled burn, burn hot enough to melt steel. CANNOT. It's impossible. And what happened was anything except a clean burn--and a lot of the fuel went in the initial impact, and notably burned OUIDE of the buildings.

And that's just the beginning of the laws of nature that the impact-alone explanation tries to ignore or sidestep. Not to mention the captured-on-videos side-explosions and the reputedly tidy sectioning of the steel beams and the immediate (illegal) removal and recycling of those beams.

Oh, and no, Cheney didn't plant the explosives. He kept NORAD from responding to the airborne threats--with a new power established earlier that year: that day, for the first time in it's 50-ish years, NORAD was not under the control of the military, but the VP. And Cheney didn't let the few jets remaining in the country (that's another part of the story) scramble until after the Pentagon was hit.

Evil is afoot, my friend.

The people who won were the neocons who wnated to take over the world. And I don't think it was an accident--nor God's plan.

kr said...

OUTSIDE, not OUIDE
wanted, not wnated

(baby in arms makes typing tricky)

Gino said...

kr: do you wear the hat shiny side out?

kr said...

'fraid I'm not catching the reference?

Kris said...

It's tin foil hat. You wear a tin foil hat so the government can't read your thoughts.

I would really like to know your references and how yoiu're the expert on how jet fuel burns.

Have you seen the afterburner on a fighter jet?

Mick said...

The light construction and hollow nature of the structures allowed the jet fuel to penetrate far inside the towers, igniting many large fires simultaneously over a wide area of the impacted floors. The fuel from the planes probably burned out in less than ten minutes, but the CONTENTS of the buildings burned over the next hour or hour and a half.

The fires were hot enough to significantly WEAKEN the columns and cause floors to sag, pulling perimeter columns inward, and significantly reducing their ability to support the mass of the building above.

kris said...

I do understand how people can be led to believe that 9/11 was an inside job. The only thing that it has accomplished so far is make the United States one nation under surveillance.

Gino said...

in order for 9/11 to be an inside job, too many people would have to be involved for it to be kept secret.
where are those workers who planted the explosives? none of them have come forward? nobody saw them do it?

Kris said...

I agree with you Gino. I do see how some people with less than common sense would still feel like 9/11 was an inside job.

What gets me, though, is how government feels they need to target us to keep us safe.

kr said...

Ah. If I were worried about the goverment reading my mind, I wouldn't be bullshitting with you all on a Google-based blog, natch.

The conspiracy stuff on the web usually chooses, I assume for effect, numbers on the high-end for "the melting point of steel" ("steel" of course has differing properties for different types of steel) but their concept is sound.

In an extremely controlled burn (yes, more controlled than a fighter jet even), jet fuel can technically get hot enough to melt some steels. The WTC was not at all a controlled burn. (At temperatures hot enough to melt steel, other things would have been burning Very Cleanly--that whole billows of black smoke and small amounts of bright red-orange flame thing, not suggesting a clean burn.)

Carpet is a petroleum-based fuel, of far less efficiency than jet fuel. Computer plastics are petroleum-based. Paper is wood based, and famously burns at 419F. What exactly in the "contents of the building" was creating extreme heat after being triggered by the jet fuel?

Although I have searched some (4 kids + school = less time to bullshit now than formerly), I cannot find the best web-doc ... which showed footage or stills from all of the major fires in steel-frame buildings besides WTC 1,2, and 7 ... some of them involving airplane crashes ... none of them fell, even thought some burned for days, and some of the buildings were significantly earlier than the WTC complex.

The cores were designed to
(1) not act as chimneys (which apparently they did not--black smoke = not enough oxygen for a clean burn)
(2) redistribute stresses through redundancy (which they apparently did--the towers shook from the impacts, but stopped shaking several minutes later)

All of the structural steel was (famously, because it was going to be a headache for the new leaseholder--Silverstein, maybe? I forget--to remove) covered in asbestos, so only steel that had taken a direct hit (scraping off the asbestos) would have even had direct exposure to the not-hot-enough fires.

If the top of the towers had collapsed because of impact damage, to the core or the outer sections, they would have sheered off sideways: like a tree felled by an ax, damage that was not perfectly centered would have caused tipping. (The conspiracy films on the web sometimes bring this up for the ridiculously obviously controlled collapse of WTC 7, but I've never heard it for WTC 1 and 2. Which is not to say I'm smarter than everyone else, just to let you know that I do think for myself. Which you all should know by now anyhow, if you weren't busy calling me stupid.)

What the films do bring up is the "pancake effect" theory (where the floors fell down like records on a player) ... if each floor had offered even a tiny bit of resistance, even just the top floors, the falls should have taken longer. And the core would have been standing, for at least some of it's length, above the rubble. The core and the office-spaces obviously would have fallen at the same rate (gravity), IF they had broken at the same time (which apparently did happen). Structurally, that makes NO sense; the core was essentially a super-strong skyscraper inside of the (much larger in area) outer sections and "skin." (The "skin" was designed to hold everything in, not to hold up the building, counter to what most people seem to think--and this is not conspiracy-think, this I knew even before I visited the WTC in 1995 and read it again on the materials available there. I'm related to a couple of civil engineers, these things were of interest in the family.) And again, we should have seen this "pancaking" first or only on the side that was damaged, not so symetrically that the buildings each landed in their own footprint.

That's the physics.

-----

As to how it was hidden?

Most obviously, WTC 7 was brought down, when it had sustained relatively no damage compared to the other WTC buildings, which had to be taken down by construction crews. (The "it should not have fallen symetrically" argument especially applies to this one.) Go read a list of what offices were there, if you are interested. It's a who's-who of financial and goverment organizations.

There were apparently a never-done-before series of firedrills and evacuations in the summer before 9-11, and powerdowns within the building, in sections ... all reasonable for a new leaseholder who was testing his systems. But also opportunities for someone in the know (the leaseholder or someone else) to arrange to plant explosives.

Humans have been known, you know, throughout history, to do things not-precisely-moral for "higher ends." And people in power have been known to use a propensity for "higher ends" thinking in others to get what they want done without sullying thier own hands. Obviously covertly rigging a building for demolition requires some serious dedication, by actual trained people. As uncomfortable as it makes me, I have to admit that even demolition experts can very likely be persuaded, bought, or blackmailed, like all(?) humans, and that if someone set out to do this, they would have screened their chosen people carefully, and probably pulled in people who didn't know each others' families or were otherwise easily disposable.

After it happened, the workers who didn't commit suicide from the stress could have been pretty easily taken out: car accidents due to mechanical failure happen every day, yes? People have heart attacks. (Whoever did this clearly doesn't value human lives too highly; collateral damage wouldn't be too concerning as long as it couldn't be traced.)

And who would notice in the aftermath of 9-11? Would a medical worker say, golly, this middleaged average American sure shouldn't have died of a heart attack in these stressful days, I'd better look for assassination drugs! If their family even began to suspect that they were assassinated, they would have to suspect why, and what family would bring that down on themselves? And as more and more people suffer because the WTC was conflated with Baathism, exposing a dark secret you are not yourself sure of and that will cause people to automatically label you either loony or evil would seem an increasingly unattractive idea.

-----

Frankly, I don't know what the human side was, although there are lots of plausible scenarios out there (and lots of dumbshit ones).

Whatever the human side was or wasn't, the physics don't make sense, though.

For a year or two, I was willing to Give God the Glory and believe the within-the-footprint-falls were miraculous, even though the falls didn't make sense from a civil-engineering (physics) standpoint. I didn't want to think about it. It was really when I was faced with the footage of the other steelframed skyscrpers NOT falling, after burning for many many hours or days (it's the burned-for-days ones that let the WTC designer know not to let the core become a chimney, btw), that I had to sit down and look at what might be an ugly, ugly truth.

The physics don't work. If either building broke, which they shouldn't have, and evidence suggests they didn't (until the sudden catastrophic failures), it should have broken asymmetrically, per the damage. Ignoring the asymmetrics, if they had pancaked there should have been some resistance. Ignoring the lack of structural resistance of the outer levels, the core should have resisted differently than the outer parts--and even if it fell, it should have fallen in uneven chunks, and (again) some of it should have gone sideways, and some of it should have remained standing in the basement.

One thing that makes me angry about the webdocs is that they ignore the incredible thermal energy that would have been created by the collapse; they are always arguing "thermite" to explain the "oven" under the debris. I am not pro-or-anti- "thermite-was-used" (don't know enough), but they shoot themselves in the foot ignoring the counterargument.

----

Now, did I miss the memo about the temporary lifting of the laws of nature that day? God is reputed to do suspend them occasionally (miracles), but this doesn't really seem His style.

Wassup, folks?

kr said...

and, kris, the government doesn't feel 'it needs to target us to keep us safe'

it targets us to better control us and to keep power

(and "government" doesn't do it ... just the interested humans do)

what isn't arguable, I would think, is that we are targeted ... isn't that really what all this increased surveillence is?

kr said...

I will also add:

I was among the Americans who were not shocked when 9-11 happened. Saddened, but to me the planes hitting the buildings was a logical extension of world-patterns, and carried no real "shock." I was not in denial that it "could" have happened--"not in America!" Pff. I was 100% willing to believe in the hijackers (and still am).

I just now also believe there was another game afoot, because I cannot match the established results with the declared inputs.

Kris said...

KR,

You wrote:

"and, kris, the government doesn't feel 'it needs to target us to keep us safe'

it targets us to better control us and to keep power

(and "government" doesn't do it ... just the interested humans do)

what isn't arguable, I would think, is that we are targeted ... isn't that really what all this increased surveillence is?"

I could not agree more with you.

That is why I'm going with Ron Paul.

Kris said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkgGOFXuYPw

Andy said...

Whatever. Anyone running as a Republican automatically doesn't have the credibility necessary to lead the country. Period.

Gino said...

ron paul does.

all the rest, from both paries, are just varying shades of the same color.

Kristopher said...

http://krispolitirants.blogspot.com/2007/09/ron-paul-videos.html

On a serious note, Andy, one must be somewhat realistic, even if prominently idealistic. I'm extremely idealistic and lean more towards the Constitutional Party or America First Party.

I wish Ron Paul would run under the CP ticket, but I think he even knows his only chance is to be on one of the only winning horses in a two-horse race.

But, he's the real deal.

Gino said...

paul doesnt think he's going to win.
he has spent the last generation speaking and teaching about the libertarian ideals, and the ideas that used to be commomplace in the GOP, and not all that long ago.

this gives him a bigger forum, and is why he's doing it.
somebody needs to say what he is saying. another point of view that has been lost needs to be heard.

Andy said...

Hi there, KR called and asked me to let y'all know she's having internet connectivity issues, she hasn't abandoned the thread. She'll be back! (And as for my previous comment, I was just being inflammatory. I get tired of being so nice all the time! We ALL know I'd vote for Huckabee over Hillary ANY day.)

Gino said...

andy:inflammatory can be good.
i think you may change yer mind on paul when you find out he's against the defense of marriage act.
tell kr 'hi' for me.

kr said...

Yay! Problem solved!

See, and I'm not a conspiracy crackpot, because it took me like 12 hours of poking around trying to figure out why I couldn't get on the web before it even occured to me that I had 'suspiciously recently' posted anti-establishment WTC stuff ;) ... but, yay, it was only a goof by my DSL provider. At least, as far as we can tell ... ;). And so, 36 hours later, I am back :).

kris, that endgame thing is maybe TMI ... sigh. I'm beginning, myself, to get antsy because I'm starting to get the same spiritual "sense" of a lot of what that link calls "the elites," and it frikkin' sux. I'm not sure I want to see an entire film of it.

Grr.

Ron Paul, yep, seems to be very clean of that.

Hope he stays so.

A bunch of 20-somethings held a Ron-Paul event on the side of I-5 in north Portland (Oregon) the other day :). But then, Oregon is a hotbed of Libertarianism, I think ;).

Andy said...

i think you may change yer mind on paul when you find out he's against the defense of marriage act.

He's also completely opposed to the Iraq War. That just indicates he has a basic level of intellectual competence (as opposed to, say, Giuliani). It is such a silly lie to say that liberals think government is the answer to every problem. I don't know anyone who thinks that. But anyone with any real business sense and any empathy for the average consumer has to understand that, from a purely practical point of view, there are certain services the government is uniquely positioned to provide. I think the government SHOULD be run more like a business (that's what makes Bloomberg's candidacy attractive to some), except that the profit motivation is removed and everything is scrutinized on a cost/benefit analysis from the standpoint of the consumer/voter. For example, if you look at what is going to get the American people the highest quality medical care for the lowest price, universal healthcare is a no-brainer.

Kris said...

"For example, if you look at what is going to get the American people the highest quality medical care for the lowest price, universal healthcare is a no-brainer."

Can you explain this no-brainer to me?

Kristopher said...

http://krispolitirants.blogspot.com/2007/09/lets-do-it-right-this-election.html

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